Performance Based Web Developers And SEO Agencies

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This topic contains 60 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by   Matt Bowski .

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  • #8528

    Mina Patel
    Member

    Let me try again. I don’t think I was clear, my apologies. I have found a direct correlation between my websites ranking and the business it generates. I can appreciate that a websites performance can be based on other factors, but ranking has been the driving force for me. Are there any web developers or SEO experts that are performance base paid? Or are most paid based on “what’s your budget”? I don’t mean, the person doesn’t get paid unless….. whatever happens. I mean you are paid something for the work and something more if it performs at a certain level, however that level is defined. In other words, you have some incentive tied to the website beyond the budget allocated. Skin in the game so to speak. Thank you in advance for understanding I have no idea what you do or how to do it, but I am fascinated by it. My question is sincere and not intended to offend. (Basically, I’m looking for that type of a business relationship if that exists).

  • #8529

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    I believe what you’re looking for is called “lead generation” – there are different models, but if you google “lead gen business model” that should be a good starting point.

    • #8530

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Lead gen most definitely and I do what the op said . I only get paid from leads I actually generate and those leads turn into sales

    • #8544

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      can you elaborate on the service you provide. PM me if you would prefer.

  • #8545

    Jackie Worsley
    Member

    People do offer such services and work with these terms, but mostly people prefer avoiding such terms.

  • #8546

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    If you doing seo for clients you really need to charge monthly for the amount of work and eventually what you have to pay for for back links. People who don’t have a budget are not the best clients in the world and you will lose money.

    • #8558

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I understand. If I represent someone on a contingency bases, the more money they get, the more I get. Our incentives are tied together. For web developer I believe the problem would be how do you know what’s been generated. Where as with me and my client, the check come to me.

    • #8559

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      You can set up Google Analytics for how many people purchase through the website but that doesn’t cover how many people just pick up the phone and order over the phone. I order over the phone I never fill out the forms even though I’m an seo guy. Also keep in mind you are not responsible for sales. You can do everything in the world with good seo and drive traffic that website but if the product is bad or the salesman is bad that’s not your fault and you shouldn’t have to suffer. Get out of this client right away there are plenty out there. If you want to create and lead Gen. Site and sell leads that is an investment on your half. Don’t invest in other people’s companies

    • #8560

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Alright. Makes sense.

    • #8573

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      that was actually a very helpful answer.

    • #8574

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I think I can ask you this without offending and get a reasonable answer. I know nothing about cars, so when I take my car to the shop I’m at their mercy. They tell me I need this, I go “OK”. Same with my website, I know nothing. So I’m told I need “back-links” I go “OK”. Now you need AMP. I go “OK”. $15,000 later in 8 month time period and I’m thinking “the car should be running better”. Am I just jaded or do I not understand the business or both? Thanks.

    • #8589

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      could be the type of back-links, where they are pointing, what keyword you are choosing and the balance of it looking natural

    • #8590

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      $15k should be accompanied by a measurable change in ranking. If not, you have the wrong SEO firm.

    • #8591

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I have done lead gen for several local businesses .I provide telephone leads.what happens is that the phone number that the prospects uses is connected to the local business. This way I have all the data at the back office that I can show the client .
      of this includes telephone numbers that called and the duration of each call.

      As for SEO if you don’t get a monthly report showing you what has been done and how your rankings are going then you have the wrong guys for this job.

  • #8600

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    You are looking for result oriented promotion or simply lead basis promotion..you can simply work on post a pay model..you can define targets and if you get your results then only you need to pay…but the main point is ..will you find someone who is willing to work on this ..is main thing sir

    • #8601

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I agree. Most want to be paid no matter the results. That’s the issue

    • #8602

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      well, of course everyone has to eat, so no way to pay nothing for a year of SEO. My recommendation would be to set a baseline for pay and service, with reward tiers or increases based on agreed upon targets. This model does exist. I use it.

    • #8618

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      i understand your point too..as its easy to achieve 3 or 4th page ranking but sometimes the keyword got stuck on fourth page and client feel cheated by seo guy 😛 so maybe you are right too…so for this.. you need to share the keyword with the web url 🙂 if you will get the exact timeline and keyword position report…then it will be easy to choose your vendor 🙂

    • #8619

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      You see if for example i provide you with a telephone lead…its your responsibility to close the client.all my work was to do is bring the customer through the door.and if you have a rubbish front office guy or girl then you lose the prospect.

    • #8620

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      But if I’m selling boats and you’re bringing clients wanting to buy cars, that’s not helpful. No matter how good a salesperson is, you’re not going to sell a lot of boats. Just bringing a customer through the door is not enough. It has to be a customer interested in that business. I have always said finding clients is very easy. Finding clients with money that are willing to pay you is the challenge. Thank you for the input.

    • #8634

      Jackie Worsley
      Member

      Gotcha Tony Turner. If that would be the case then I will not be doing you a great service.

      What I’ve done before for lead gen is different. I zero in on buyer intent.

      if one is looking for an *injury attorney * that is what they get at the end of that phone call, unless the caller is just window shopping .but i got your point mate.

  • #8635

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    Yes. Many start ups can’t pay good wages so they supplement with shares. Many many….

    • #8636

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I’m a developer with experience in seo, but never professionally

  • #8637

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    It’s very difficult to find someone to do that because of so many factors involved. As a consumer you should have some type of audit done to see what your website is lacking and have the SEO company specify what they will do to the site and how much they will charge. You probably need things like high quality backlinks, social media promotion/setup, site speed improvement, adding content, building citations, etc. I am not an agency and usually turn down jobs, but all of my clients I’ve had I simply tell them I will do X hours for X per hour and tell them what I recommend and they tell me what they want done. That way there is no expectations other than me doing what I say I’m going to do.

    I’ve seen many scam agencies that charge a monthly fee and don’t actually even do anything. My last client who is a friend was actually paying $700 a month for on site optimization and when I logged into the server to back up the files the “date modified” on all the pages was over a year old.

  • #8653

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    Search Engine Optimization (SEO) means optimizing a website in which search engines can quickly and efficiently scan your page, know what its about and associate it with the ideal words/phrases. It also helps them determine your website is designed well in terms of code architecture and speed, or negatively in terms of spammy and attempting to trick search engines. The process is very cut and dry and can be checked visually through source code and testing metric websites. However, alone it does not mean your website will rank well. That is also determined by your website authority/rank, which is determined by other people/websites linking to you, and/or your authority on the subject which is sometimes ranked by google human reviewers.

    • #8654

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Yup spot on. My best advice for anyone considering hiring a SEO would be to use the many different (and extremely cheap sometimes free) site audit tools/services. If you know yourself what is missing and needs to be fixed it will be harder for a potential company that you hire to BS you and try to sell you and something you don’t need and it will also tell you if they even know what they’re talking about.

  • #8655

    Jackie Worsley
    Member

    Sure, as long as there is complete transparency and it’s based on leads only. I’ve tried revenue based but after a couple months of huge success the customers seem to forget who got them there and chisel in on my commission.

    PM me if you are interested in commission for leads.

  • #8656

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    There are some SEO providers (such as myself) that will provide a guarantee, not of business results, but of ranking. For example depending on industry, we offer first page ranking guaranteed in a certain amount of months for a certain amount of keywords. If we don’t achieve this, you stop paying until we do.

    • #8657

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      And what happens to the money already paid in which you did not rank?

    • #8677

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Why not offer a refund? If they wait months and have nothing to show you cost them lots of time which equates to more money than they already paid you.

    • #8678

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      My issue so far has been I have paid (what I think) is a lot of money for minimal results. The website looks great, but doesn’t rank as well. I don’t think the competition is that stiff and ranking shouldn’t be this difficult. So what do I do? Pay the next person not to rank it? There seems to be no incentive to produce a high ranking website. It seems some want to get paid for a product unseen and unproven with no recourse if it doesn’t produce. That’s just my experience. That’s coming from a small business owner with no SEO or website experience.

    • #8679

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      think of it like Attorney Services, the goal is for the attorney to put you in a better position than you were before. The attorney cannot control how bad you broke the law or what sentence the judge gives you, your main job is to do as best as you can so they are in a position better than they would be without you. You could be correct that the SEO was not any good and did not provide any positive benefits for you but without seeing the progress it would be hard to gauge.

      If you hired someone and they added 20 high quality back-links and increased the speed of your site they provided a useful service no matter what the Google results say.

    • #8699

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      You probably have a decent budget to hire someone who is really good based off the money the leads generate. I recommend searching attorneys in your field in major cities outside Florida. Find the best ranked sites and check the footer for links of SEO agencies. If they have worked in your profession and provided positive results they aren’t guaranteed to do a great job but they will be much more likely to do so.

      If I was going to hire an attorney I would go for a guy who won many cases in the same field over anyone else. Same concept.

    • #8700

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      you will rank, it may take a bit longer that’s all. What happens when a business spends thousands of dollars on newspaper or radio advertising and no one calls? They don’t offer a refund. Clients need to be informed that SEO is a process that requires time and maintenance to work. It isn’t a quick fix. If they want fast results use Google ads or Facebook ads.

    • #8711

      Jackie Worsley
      Member

      did you pay for someone to build you a website and just expect it to rank, or did you hire an SEO company to rank it for you? Having an SEO optimized website will definitely improve your chances of ranking but you need more than that. How long have you been waiting for results? What expectations were set at the beginning?

    • #8712

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      My understanding is that many SEO companies will not the same niche in the same geo location?

    • #8713

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Yeah that’s why I suggested finding someone in his same legal field in another state, same expertise with no conflict of interest, assuming they are not working for a nationwide firm

    • #8714

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I may have been guilty of building a website and expecting it to rank. I did not hire a SEO co to rank it. To answer your question, I have probably been working diligently this year trying to rank it. I had moved up nicely and was ranked in the top two or three everywhere I wanted. Then I took a dive. Now I’m on page 2 in three of the five markets. I stayed #1 in my main market so that’s the silver lining. I think maybe google Ad-words helped push me up the rankings and when I paused those accounts because we got too busy and had to catch up, my website plunged. I may be confusing cause and effect, but the timing between me pausing the Ad-words and the dive were similar

    • #8715

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I don’t think it would be that difficult to dominate this area of the law in this market with the right SEO campaign. There are no major players like in Personal Injury. Most are just “mom and pop” shops. No major firms or large budgets. The problem I have is getting the right person to help rank the site. I don’t mind investing time and money into the website, I just haven’t found the right person. Of course, once you get the work you have to handle it. That’s the other issue, Efficiently handling the work flow. I hope to send you some more info on my infrastructure and procedures this weekend

  • #8716

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    Bells should ring when someone guarantee rankings

    • #8717

      Jackie Worsley
      Member

      Are there no guarantees?

    • #8718

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      What recourse do I have when I pay good money and the performance seems to be sub-par?

    • #8732

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      There’s a lemon laws pertaining to autos, the Florida Bar regulates me. The Consumer Protection Act protects some consumers. If I hire a person out of the States and the work is sub-par, what do you do? I’m not going to sue someone over a few thousand dollars. Not worth the time. What I’ve done is just “eat it” and move to the next person.

    • #8733

      Jackie Worsley
      Member

      Learn enough to spot the crook. Talk deliverable strategies that are in control of the agency. Rankings are not.

    • #8734

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      What i said above should clarify. The SEO of your website is visible if you know what your looking at. Your developer should be able to should you how the website is fully optimized. Ranking is based on getting others to link to your site. For Example, having an informative blog is something people would organically link to. When a page links to you, it passes authority/rank value to you. Also you can get linked to other sites in many other way. No one can guarantee you results because logically it just doesn’t make sense. Think about it.. 100,000 “SEO” companies guaranteeing a bankruptcy client that they can guarantee #1 position. 999,999 of them will not be able to because its mathematically impossible. This is why anyone guaranteeing a specific result is not being honest.

    • #8735

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Assuming it was legal for them to do so what would you tell me if I told you I found an attorney who was going to take my case and told me I would pay based on the verdict of the case?

    • #8736

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      That’s what they do .. 30% for lawsuit’s.

    • #8749

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Yeah what type of attorneys specialize in those cases?

    • #8750

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Every lawsuit attorney.

    • #8752

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Any SEO worth their salt should be able to guarantee improved traffic.

      Almost certainly page one rankings.

      But yes saying you can rank number one for a keyword there is no guarantee.

    • #8753

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Those attorneys cherry pick their cases, it would be like an SEO taking on a site who is ranked on page 2 and guaranteeing them page 1

    • #8756

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      You can’t guarantee page 1 even if you are the best. The very same clients who try and push me to are the same who moved from WP to wix to square-space and do not give me any notice. Then when I finally get them on page 1 they decide to re-brand their domain.

    • #8757

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I had this happen twice for criminal lawyers. One ranked for ‘criminal lawyer’ in their city. The other one ranked for ‘tax lawyer’ in their city and then changed their mind about wanting to do tax law and asked if I can make the rankings move to criminal lawyer right away. He then didn’t think he should pay because I did all this work for a service he doesn’t want to do anymore.

    • #8758

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      quite shocked you can’t flip keywords at the drop of a hat.

      Bad at SEO you

    • #8759

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      it happens all the time. It called a contingency fee. All those attorneys advertising for auto account cases work based on that model. You don’t win, you don’t get paid.

    • #8762

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      Any personal injury cases, medical malpractice cases, products liability cases are taken on a contingency fee basis if you’re represented the injured person. If you represent the insurance company you get an hourly rate. Family law, Contract Disputes, Criminal law, you get an hourly rate. Bankruptcy we get a flat rate.

  • #8763

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    we have worked with clients that at least initially wanted to run on an organic ppc model as justification for their costs. ie the ppc cost of this term is $5 per click. – we get you around 1000 per month for $1000. if you were advertising it would cost you $x

  • #8765

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    I’d work on a pay per lead basis.

    Then it’s not just an SEO play.

    I’d use Ad-words. SEO. Social any form of traffic.

  • #8767

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    I’ve been a developer for some department head or another for the last two years. I can tell you that your question hits at the fundamentals of the business in question. If NO ONE can rank the site and the site “looks good”, then there is almost certainly an underlying fundamental business impediment prohibiting those who are trying from succeeding. It’s true there are bad apples that will just take your money and run, but if you’ve gotten reviews, done your due diligence, and you still aren’t getting results, stop paying an seo and start paying a business analyst. You need a better business model.

    • #8768

      Matt Bowski
      Moderator

      I agree. however in spite of all SEO efforts, if there’s not even a modicum of improvement, then gotta scrap the whole thing & restart again or give it away to someone else.

  • #8769

    Matt Bowski
    Moderator

    Doing SEO is not a walk in the park and with Google’s ever changing algorithms you have to be abreast with what’s working and what’s not.
    With that said and done no one can guarantee 100% page one rankings. But if one does improve you’re rankings then the job is done.And if that SEO did his analysis 1st before he started working on your website then he should deliver reasonable results in as few as 3 months .

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